Registering as a cat breeder, Sign-up procedure Options

[Catsfriend]

I am already a registered breeder and have been clapped on my shoulder many times for "being good". Recently, when I posted a slightly controversial issue on this forum, some respondent(s) accused me that I probably AM NOT a "registered breeder" at all, if I represent such opinions, and they pointed to the Codes of Ethics of the governing bodies etc. As it is very long ago since I got registered with my association and didn't remember the exact procedure, I just did a test and signed up with another association as a "Registered cat breeder" over the Internet.

* It took me about one (1) minute. Google 3 words (cat or feline, association or council, state), find the website, complete and submit the membership form.
* The website brought me with one mouse click straight to the membership form, without pointing to any general conditions at all. It was faster than signing up to this forum here!
* The "Codes of Ethics" are not referred to anywhere, neither on the main page, nor on the application form. Actually, I couldn't find them at all. (Later, I searched for about 5 minutes.)
* All the membership form wanted to know were my contact details and which breed of cat I own, and they wanted me to transfer the membership fee of $20 to a bank account and send a payment receipt to the club treasurer's email. I submitted.
* Then, a number of advertisements for not cat-related products and services came up, and I couldn't get back to the main page any more.

I guess I am now a "Registered Breeder" with another association, too, and therefore twice as ethical.
I guess I could sign up with about every other cat breeders' association in Australia this way, too, provided I could use some friend's address in their state. Perhaps even their names, and develop multiple identities? (This was just a thought, I don't reallly intend to do it - but I have heard of cases where it was done.)

Well, I will pay those $20 and see what happens next.

What do you think about these procedures?

[Furrballz]

If you are aiming at my comments about ethics, then you should go back and read what I put in that post. I never claimed you werent registered, tho I did point out the code of ethics that EVERYONE agrees to by signing the membership form as they are on most membership forms for cat bodies.

I dont know if you know that its not ethical to be registered with more than one association unless it is allowed to have duel membership.
Some places allow it, but you cannot duel register your kittens, they HAVE to be registered with ONE registery body only. This would be like registering your childs birth twice!

There are many types of people that become Registered Breeders, both good and bad in their ethics and beliefs on how animals should be treated and bred from. The Ethics that are signed on a membership form are a legally binding agreement between the breeder and the association. If the Breeder breaks them, the Association has every right to de-register that Breeder, and I do know of several Breeders that have been kicked out of an Association due to their Ethics and or behaviour.

[ChocolateDots]

I guess I am now a "Registered Breeder" with another association, too, and therefore twice as ethical.

Actually you aren't yet a member, memberships must be passed by the exec committee. Joining as a member is not the same as dual registering a prefix either. And the code of conduct download is on the same page as the online member form.

I dont know if you know that its not ethical to be registered with more than one association unless it is allowed to have duel membership.

Dual membership is allowed in SA between FASA and GCCFSA

[Lee Lee]

I guess I am now a "Registered Breeder" with another association, too, and therefore twice as ethical

Being ethical has nothing to do with how many councils you are registered with...it is the way you conduct yourself as a breeder....and making sure you abide by the councils rules....which are there for a reason.

[Furrballz]

Choc Dots, I know in SA its allowed... which is why my next sentence mentions that some councils allow this, but not duel registration of the cats (ie- you need to choose ONE of the registries to have your litter registrations ect put thru)

[Catsfriend]

I guess I am now a "Registered Breeder" with another association, too, and therefore twice as ethical. >
Being ethical has nothing to do with how many councils you are registered with...

Hey, of course, I know that. Why do you think that I put a smiley face with an extra big laugh behind that sentence? IT WAS A JOKE.

Before I spend my $20, can you possibly tell me whether I can have some cats and their litters registered with one club, and other cats and their litters with the other one? I think in some cases it could make sense because of the different rules which these two associations actually apply.

What other benefits could a double registration possibly have? As I wrote originally, at the start I was not really interested in joining the other club - I just wanted to check out how their registration process works. However, I know that other breeders are members of both associations, and I guess they certainly have some valid reasons. What about you, ChocolateDots?

[OldTom]

I think the OP was referring to me when quoting "other respondent(s)" Terri-Ann.

That was in response to my disbelief to the ideas expressed by the OP that led me to believe that they had absolutely no idea of what is required and expected when trying to promote themselves as a breeder.

Maybe it was just my naivete in thinking that ALL breeders are ethical and do the right thing by their chosen breed and the people that they deal with.

I must be supremely lucky in that the people that I've dealt with in the past and my current associates are indeed ethical.

[Catsfriend]

The big problem, Tom, is that there is absolutely no unity in the cat breeders' world about what is actually ethical. Therefore, I believe it makes sense to discuss this topic, particularly as the ordinary member of such an association does not seem to have any opportunity to influence the contents of the 'binding agreement' that is closed between them and the association. For example, as perfectly demonstrated above, in some states it is considered unethical to be a member of more than one club, but in other states it is considered common practice and absolutely okay. In some states it is fine to sell kittens from 10 weeks of age, in others you could get kicked out of the club if you don't wait until they are at least 12. In some clubs it is considered as one of the greatest sins to sell on a breeding cat to another breeder, in others it is done all the time. So behaving just 'normal' in one state is interpreted as being 'unethical' in the other!

On the other hand, none of the clubs whichs' codes of ethics I have read includes in its rules that the breeder must have cats or kittens desexed before selling them on as pets, which I would consider as probably the most important point that should be included to prevent unsolicited breeding from the start - and there are many more such gaps, including the lack of mandatory microchipping which would allow an unmistakable identification of each cat, e.g. at shows or when checking the genuity of pedigrees.

If there was a way - and please tell me if there is - I would suggest a nationwide umbrella organisation to be established which shall issue reasonable nationwide binding rules for breeders, based upon the input of the members of all state organisations. All the members should have a say, be invited to an annual general assembly to vote on decisions, and participate in the nominations and elections of the members of the national committee. It would also enormously reduce the paperwork if this ONE national body would maintain the cat register and issue all certificates related to cat registrations and transfers. The state associations and clubs on the other hand, should exclusively focus on organising shows and social activities, based on the contributions of volunteers. In my eyes, such changes would make sense big time, but who shall such suggestions be submitted to?

[Furrballz]

I disagree about no unity in what is Ethical! There certainly IS common ground on the major issues such as having a good reputation for correctly treating your cats, accurate record keeping and abiding by the rules and regs you have signed up for in your particular association. (such as not allowing unregistered cats to breed with your registered ones)

The reason that there are no rules for desexing of kittens/cats before leaving a breeders home is for freedom of choice. Some breeders and still alot of vets, rightly or wrongly, beleive that their cats or kittens should not be desexed until x age etc.

We have different associations as people have become disillusioned with the group they were with, so a new one was started up. This is a democracy, so we do have CHOICE!

I would dearly love to see a unified cat fancy, but some people are too narrow in their visions and only want to push their own barrow

[Catsfriend]

We have different associations as people have become disillusioned with the group they were with, so a new one was started up. This is a democracy, so we do have CHOICE!

Terri-Ann, I am happy that we agree on some issues, but sorry, not on this one. Sadly, we don't really have a choice. In some states, there is only one breeders' association. In SA, we have two. That's it. Choosing between one or two is not really much of a choice, is it?

And I was already warned to NEVER buy any cats from breders with papers from certain interstate associations because they won't be recognised by my club. So, what do you do if you don't agree with neither of the one or two clubs which are available to you, 100% (although perhaps 95%), but

you still want to get certified pedigree papers issued for the kittens you breed, and that is all you really want?

Out of the 12 points which the association I'm with lists in their 'code of ethics' there is ONE OUT OF TWELVE - which I would like to have changed. It is No 12 on http://users.chariot.net.au/~gccfsa/Code.html

But how can we make such a change happen? Who shall be addressed? Who will vote? How democratic is an association which's rules cannot be influenced by its members?

[Furrballz]

It seems to be more of a choice than one single registry would give that you also posed tho, isnt it?
I dont quite get how you think that its ok to have a choice, but you also want one registering body like dogs? You do seem to be contradicting yourself in this, hence my confusion

An unregistered animal cannot be used in a registered breeding program
I dont beleive it SHOULD be changed as we need to know as much as we can about the backgrounds of the cats that are IN the breeding program.

I cant comment on how to get it changed, as you need to approach your Registering body and ask them about how to go about doing it.

[Catsfriend]

An unregistered animal cannot be used in a registered breeding program
I dont beleive it SHOULD be changed as we need to know as much as we can about the backgrounds of the cats that are IN the breeding program.

Just to clarify this one: I am not talking here about cats of unknown origin. Of course, noone should breed of such cats. I am talking about cats with pedigrees that were certified by the registering bodies, or the immediate offspring of such cats.

The typical case is: The breeder sells an undesexed cat as a pet, then leaves the club, dies or moves away and can not be found any more, or wouldn't agree to have the cat registered as a breeding cat anyway, even if the cat was superb breeding quality, because [they] "won't support competitors in [their] own territory" - a reasoning which I have indeed heard from registered breeders several times. The cat grows into an absolute beauty, maybe even wins some cat show, and the owners decide that they want to breed and they wish to get certified pedigrees for their kittens.

The change that I would like to see happen is that such cat owners should be accepted and welcomed as breeders, not frowned upon as 'backyard breeders' and some sort of unethical second-class people, simply because they are NOT, and their cats should get registered on their request, even without the original breeder's approval.

In addition to that, I would also like to see that each cat that someone wants to breed from (no matter whether they or their parents had been previously registered or not, and whether their owner is a reputable well established breeder or not yet) should first (1) be judged by an unbiased judge who doesn't know anything about the cat's owner or background (which is actually the approach at shows here, as I was very happy to witness), and (2) a satisfactory vet health check should be documented, before they can get any papers issued as breeding cats. I also believe it is far too early to decide upon breeding or non-breeding quality at 3 months of age - the assessment should take place after 9 months of age, by a professional impartial expert.

When I address my council's representatives with such suggestions, what I hear is - 'Oh no, other breeders wouldn't agree with that', and that's the end of any discussion. That's why I am so frustrated.

[Furrballz]

Majority rules, like it or not.
You have every right to ask it to be tabled at a council meeting and attend to present your case, I beleive. Personally I dont hold alot of hope for it to go thru as I dont beleive it is right.

People that are unregistered breeders are usually well aware of their status and that they are welcome to become REGISTERED Breeders, BUT I do NOT agree that ALL cats should be allowed to become Registered regardless of what the original Breeder thinks!!

What if they only paid for a pet kitten and decided to 'make some money' from their expensive pedigree cat?? NO WAY should they then be allowed to change their mind and have a fully registered cat without prior agreement from the Breeder that has spent all the money and upkeep on the lines behind that cat... not to mention what if it isnt good enough in type to BE a breeding cat?
A pet kitten is chosen as a pet and sold as a pet for many reasons and is only for the breeder to decide.

I DO know what I am talking about as well as I WAS an unregistered breeder before people gently took me by the hand and showed me the BEST way to contribute to my chosen breed, so I desexed ALL my unregistered cats and re-homed most of them as pets and then purchased REGISTERED cats and started again.

[ChocolateDots]

The typical case is: The breeder sells an undesexed cat as a pet........

I really don't think that's typical at all! With a vast amount of breeders desexing pets before placement, and others following up that the kittens get desexed at the agreed upon time.

In addition to that, I would also like to see that each cat that someone wants to breed from (no matter whether they or their parents had been previously registered or not, and whether their owner is a reputable well established breeder or not yet) should first (1) be judged by an unbiased judge..... before they can get any papers issued as breeding cats.

Are you aware of the difference between show quality, breeding quality and pet quality??

Judges also have very different opinions, just look at each rings results at a show - often completely different from judge to judge. So having one person look over a cat and deem it worthy of breeding is really just ridiculous.

I also believe it is far too early to decide upon breeding or non-breeding quality at 3 months of age - the assessment should take place after 9 months of age, by a professional impartial expert.

Which is why breeders will run on a kitten, to see how they develop. No one is stopping you from holding onto a girl and desexing her later if she doesn't turn out as hoped.

[Lee Lee]

Are you aware of the difference between show quality, breeding quality and pet quality??

Could not agree with this more. A lot of inexperienced Birman breeders are guilty of this (just as an example). Show marked does not necessarily mean the cat is show quality. Not enough breeders read and UNDERSTAND their breed standard. I have had several mentors since I have been breeding explain my breed standard in great detail...and I will admit before that that I really didnt fully understand it.

Which is why breeders will run on a kitten, to see how they develop. No one is stopping you from holding onto a girl and desexing her later if she doesn't turn out as hoped.

Also totally agree...I have desexed 2 girls this year just before breeding age as I felt they were not suitable for breeding.

[Furrballz]

yup agree with chocolate dots and lee lee

I also have a couple of girls I am not totally happy with and in all likelyhood will be desexed once they have had one litter and hopefully I get something to run on with that improve their qualities that i feel are lacking.

[Catsfriend]

Are you aware of the difference between show quality, breeding quality and pet quality??

That is indeed a good question, although off topic here. It would deserve it's own thread!
Under this thread, here, I actually wanted to discuss the sense or nonsense of being registered with an Australian state's breeders' association, and whether there are any benefits in registering with several of them.

However, I am happy to answer this question in this small and reasonably friendly circle of breeders.
Honestly, I do not know how Australian breeders distinguish these qualities. But I know what is standard in Europe, and that makes perfect sense to me:

Pet quality is an animal (cat, dog, horse, etc.) that has disqualifying faults.

It could not get a good assessment at any show because of its clear deviation from the standard (for example, green or brown eyes in a Birman, or born with no tail), or it would not get admitted for judging at all, is therefore desexed and sold as a pet. It is expected from the breeders NOT to breed with the PARENTS of such faulty offspring any more, at least not with the same mother-father combination. If they still do, they are frowned upon. - Here in Australia, I have met heaps of breeders who proudly claim that they sell all, or almost all, of their offspring as pets only, and they keep breeding with the same pair! I have seen some of those kittens and could not find any serious fault in them.

Breeding quality and show quality is in most cases identical.

The main purpose of conducting shows is to identify the best specimen for breeding who have the best potential to improve the quality of future generations of their breed.

There are, however, exceptions. For example, a good quality cat can prove infertile, have an accident or develop some other, not genetic, health problem that excludes her from breeding. Then, she can be still shown, as a living proof of the good breeding quality of her parents and their genetic lines. There are also special classes at shows which do not compete in the breeding sections, such as very old or very unusual cats.
There are also cases when breeders, due to lack of demand on the breeders' market, have no other choice than to sell good quality offspring to people who simply don't want to breed. In such cases, the breeder will at least try to convince them to, at least please, attend some shows to give a good testimonial to the breeder's parent cats. Those are show quality but not breeding quality cats.

On the other hand, some cats can have an excellent genetic equipment (genotype) which, unfortunately, does not clearly show up (is expressed) in their physical appearance (phenotype), but is still reliably passed on to their offspring. These cats produce the most beautiful kittens although, themselves, they look rather unimposing and won't win any champion titles. Please note: They do NOT have any disqualifying features! Their good sides are simply not that obviously exposed as in some competing cats at the shows and, therefore, they will never get the top titles which are reserved for the best of the best only - but these cats will still always pass at a show and never be disqualified. These are good breeding cats but not good show cats - mainly because it is depressing for their owner to never win.

Question answered? Now PLEASE tell me: How do you distinguish here in Australia?

[Furrballz]

"Under this thread, here, I actually wanted to discuss the sense or nonsense of being registered with an Australian state's breeders' association, and whether there are any benefits in registering with several of them."

This really does need to be directed at your individual registry as I have explained before, this is varied from state to state as to its allowance.
I also know that duel registry is not what you think it is.
Please contact your registry for clarification

"But I know what is standard in Europe, and that makes perfect sense to me"

As we are NOT in Europe, this isnt relevant.
If you continue to go on about the European standards, I will have to assume you only wish to go by standards that are not accepted in Australia and are not willing to change your thinking, as I feel I am talking in circles about this.

How to distinguish between show, pet and breeding quality.

Alot of this is personal choice, instinct and 'eye' in all breeds. First and foremost to know the difference I do beleive you need to be active in showing for a few years and watch a variety of cats from your chosen breed being judged and hearing different judges so you can form your own opinion on the standard you are breeding under.
Secondly, time and experience.
In the beginning I chose to not sell anything for breeding or showing until i was confident in their prospects on the show bench. I beleive in being totally honest with people.
I choose now not sell or allow alot of breeding animals out in my breed as I need to know those chosen will do with my breeding cats what I would do, and that is to give them a chance to be a loved pet sooner rather than later in their life. A breeding cats life should only be for a finite time until you have something better to go on with and develop.

[ChocolateDots]

That is indeed a good question, although off topic here. It would deserve it's own thread!

Not at all, threads do evolve as replies and new questions come through.

Everything else, I agree with T-A (again )

[Furrballz]

Amanda

This is getting to be a habit!

[kittenmitten]

and actually, 1 registry in Vic has just changed its code of ethics to say that any pet kittens sold must be desexed and microchipping is mandatory under Vic law, so no need for the code of ethics to mention it is compulsory, as it already is anyway. Cats need to be microchipped before they can be registered with the local council.

[Catsfriend]

Sadly, microchipping and desexing kittens before release is not compulsory in South Australia, except of Kangaroo Island - and I very much hope that SA will copy Victoria and WA very soon!

I think all people active on this forum agree that desexing before passing on a kitten is important - but we still might have to discuss the importantce of micro-chipping and registration. Once we arrive at an agreement, we can ask the cat breeders' associations and the government(s) to act on our proposal.

[OldTom]

I would think that you as a breeder would have a duty of care for the animals that you breed. If you were to lead by example and desex and microchip your animals before they go to their new owners, this would be the best that you could do for your kittens. As in every other thing, actions speak louder than words.

And I thought you weren't going to post here anymore?

[Heather Sharada]

It could not get a good assessment at any show because of its clear deviation from the standard (for example, green or brown eyes in a Birman, or born with no tail), or it would not get admitted for judging at all, is therefore desexed and sold as a pet. It is expected from the breeders NOT to breed with the PARENTS of such faulty offspring any more, at least not with the same mother-father combination. If they still do, they are frowned upon. - Here in Australia, I have met heaps of breeders who proudly claim that they sell all, or almost all, of their offspring as pets only, and they keep breeding with the same pair! I have seen some of those kittens and could not find any serious fault in them.

I have not had time to follow these conversations recently as I have been out of town and away from anything but my ipad however just waded through some of the threads....

This disqualification as you state in Europe would prevent mismarked Birmans from being used for breeding. 8 of the 10 points for disqualification in the ring are associated with white markings WHICH ARE TOTALLY RANDOM.

Some of the best show marked kittens have emerged from non show marked parents of good type.

My best ever show cat had progeny retained for breeding under strict supervision of on going results from matings because she had produced a kitten that went on to develop FIP. As FIP has a genetic component that cannot be identified by DNA testing and is not a straight recessive trait it would have been totally irresponsible to sell her progeny to just anyone who wanted it and matings had to be carefully planned.

Why would I want to sell a kitten to a new breeder or a careless breeder with little experience or understanding unless they had demonstrated their responsibility to the care and future well being of their cats and kittens that they bred or are prepared to keep a mentoring connection?

I owe it to the breed and my cats to be very cautious....on the whole people who have been entrusted with my cats have proven themselves very worthy of that trust with very few excepetions.....once bitten twice shy.

[Catsfriend]

I would think that you as a breeder would have a duty of care for the animals that you breed. If you were to lead by example and desex and microchip your animals before they go to their new owners, this would be the best that you could do for your kittens. As in every other thing, actions speak louder than words.

And I thought you weren't going to post here anymore?

Hi OldTom, well, if you are still happy to talk to me, I'll be happy to have some more discussions here, too - but hopefully no more arguments! I found that the people on this forum are in 90% or so freindlier and better approachable than especially breeders on the other, more frequented, one. Those can be really nasty sometimes. I am really much happier with the tone over here!

On the desexing thing - the "were" in your 'If you were" could be perceived somewhat misleading. I DO have all my kittens desexed, microchipped and vaccinated before I pass them on to pet homes.

Why would I want to sell a kitten to a new breeder or a careless breeder with little experience or understanding unless they had demonstrated their responsibility to the care and future well being of their cats and kittens that they bred or are prepared to keep a mentoring connection?

I owe it to the breed and my cats to be very cautious....on the whole people who have been entrusted with my cats have proven themselves very worthy of that trust with very few excepetions.....once bitten twice shy.

Perfectly understood and agreed, Heather. I just wish to confirm that I am eager to keep a mentoring connection with you and other experienced breeders, particularly here on this (most of the time) friendly forum. There is so much to learn about cats - and I am very interested to keep learning, and very grateful for having found people who I can share my concerns with and ask (soemtimes even silly) questions, too.

[Furrballz]

Hi OldTom, well, if you are still happy to talk to me, I'll be happy to have some more discussions here, too - but hopefully no more arguments! I found that the people on this forum are in 90% or so freindlier and better approachable than especially breeders on the other, more frequented, one. Those can be really nasty sometimes. I am really much happier with the tone over here!

Interesting... 90% of the people on here ARE on the other forum as well!!
Me included!

[Catsfriend]

Interesting... 90% of the people on here ARE on the other forum as well!!
Me included!

I know, Terri-Ann, I met you there. Let me word it differently: On the other one, there is a larger number of unfriendly people, whereas here it's only three or four who SOMETIMES give me a hard time, and the other ones are ALWAYS nice. Therefore, I like this forum best!

[Rachelle]

I know, Terri-Ann, I met you there. Let me word it differently: On the other one, there is a larger number of unfriendly people, whereas here it's only three or four who SOMETIMES give me a hard time, and the other ones are ALWAYS nice. Therefore, I like this forum best!

The only difference between sites is that more people frequent the other one. I don't think people on either site are 'unfriendly', you ask for advice but do not take it instead rather you argue with people who have a lot more experience than you and were initially willing to help, you highjacked other people's threads with no respect, you have been given a lot of chances which you have used up, and people are tired of you. That's not 'unfriendly' in my books.

Btw, weren't you supposed to be offline for your latest trip?

[Heather Sharada]

The only difference between sites is that more people frequent the other one. I don't think people on either site are 'unfriendly', you ask for advice but do not take it instead rather you argue with people who have a lot more experience than you and were initially willing to help, you highjacked other people's threads with no respect, you have been given a lot of chances which you have used up, and people are tired of you. That's not 'unfriendly' in my books.

I think this is the fact over at CW - our sister site. The posts you make are almost always an indication that you have very little experience as a breeder and trustee of a breeds development or for that matter understanding of cats and basic feline husbandry and yet you argue non stop in what seems like a deliberate attempt to make the thread controversial.

Asking for information is always treated with respect but loudly proclaiming that you don't agree with the advice offered and have no intention of considering it receives the respect it deserves. If you are attention seeking - which sometimes appears to be the case - you receive the attention that your posts always end up warranting.


Btw, weren't you supposed to be offline for your latest trip?

lol - I thought you would be in Sydney by now or have you decided not to go because you have very young kittens to look after.

Edited to add I now realise you were on the road.....hope your children enjoy their holiday and that the cats at home are happy and stay healthy awaiting your return.

[Catsfriend]

OK - read, understood and accepted. I will try to improve and be more respectful towards other contributors.

My kittens at home as well as all other animals are fine. My pet-sitter who comes over three times a day and spends quite some time with them always calls me immediately on my mobile if she has a question or if there is any reason for concern. We will be back home Tuesday night, so this is not a long trip anyway. I look forward to seeing my little kitties again soon!