Desex or kill ?, What to do with unhealthy cats and kittens Options

[Catsfriend]

This question is directed toward other registered breeders. I hope you can provide some valuable input. This question is about two difficult cases where I ask myself:

Desex or kill?

I guess some of my fellow Birman breeders have taken notice (as I am advertising it all over the Internet and in regional newspapers) that I am giving up my Birman breeding for good, and I am selling all my Birmans off, because we have had some health issues. I have now booked all my 4 remaining adult Birman cats (3 young beautiful and most probably absolutely healthy queens, including my Choc Point girl 'Angel' who is pictured as my avatar here, and my 10 year old Champion stud boy who is considered ill) in for desexing at my low-price Adelaide vet next Friday. I want to add to this that I am very much emotionally attached to our 10 year old Birman boy and I would prefer to keep him here for the rest of his life. The queens are very lovely, too, but I can part from them more easily.

I am asking the other fellow breeders here to give me their feedback whether I made the right decision. I am not sure. I am actually very confused. I am prepared to accept also harsh answers from those who are not fond of me. I just want to be absolutely sure that I am doing the right thing. (From the financial point of view side, what I am about to do is absolutely insane anyway, but I don't care about that aspect at this moment. I want to do what is best for the concerned cats.)

This FIRST question is about my 10 year old Birman stud male who I am quite much attached to emotionally and who I want to keep until he dies. I have the situation of 2 totally different vet opinions here:

A: My local (expensive) vet says that this cat is not even healthy enough to be vaccinated. As this vet's very expensive blood and laboratory and other tests have shown, my Birman stud boy carries the Calicivirus, has a weak heart and severe tooth decay, and therefore it could cost him his life if we put him under anaesthetics for a surgery.

B: My Adelaide (low-cost) vet says that every cat can be desexed, no matter the age and health status. He will do it, if I ask for it, no question. Shall I proceed?

Personally, I would like to have him desexed, so he can enjoy his retirement in our home and move around freely, without making unsuitable girls pregnant. (I still want to continue to breed my perfectly healthy Russian cats.) If we can't have him desexed, he will spend the rest of his life in a cage, and honestly, I find this idea heart-breaking. He is the one cat who keeps meauwing most loudly every day, to say that he wants to go for a walk. I wished no cat would have to live in a cage. They belong on the sofa in your living room, or on the grass or the tree in your backyard.


Another case who I have booked for the desexing surgery next Friday is a 5 months old female Birman kitten. She went through cat flu with her siblings. While all her brothers have recovered beautifully, she just does not want to respond to any medication. My local vet recommended to "put her down" already 2 months ago.

A: My local (expensive) vet saw her again last week and said she is still not fit to be even vaccinated. She put her now on very strong Vibramed tablets to be taken once a day for at least one month. She instructed that the tablet must be taken together with food because otherwise it would cause burns inside the mouth and osteophagus. That's how aggressive those chemical pharma drugs are. As this kitten has already gone through 5 or 6 other treatments with different pharma antibiotics, without success, this vet advised me to give up on her and 'put her to sleep'. She says that this kitten has no worthwhile life, because her nose is always blocked, which prevents her from breething properly... (while I, as a human, if you asked me, I would definitely prefer to live a life with a blocked, running nose to being put to death by injection) ...

In short: My local vet refuses to desex this kitten and wants to kill her instead. She could get pregnant already now, if not watched. We certainly don't want that to happen! I am willing to give this kitten away for free to someone who is willing to try our other healing options. What is the right choice?

B: In contrast to that, my Adelaide vet accepted my booking for spaying this sick kitten girl. His opinion: If she can breathe sufficiently to survive the surgical procedure, he will spay her. If she dies after the initiation of anaesthestia we will treat it as a 'put to sleep'. To me, personally, this is a reasonable approach.

What do my fellow breeders think of these two difficult cases?

I look forward to hearing your opinions.

[lynh]

Hi again,

As you know I'm not a breeder, but for what it's worth, I go along with the Adelaide vet in both instances.

However, what about the tooth decay? Isn't it necessary for that to be done too? Could it be done after he has recovered fully from the first op? I'm assuming it would be too much all in one go.

(Can he be brought into your home as a treat once a day? Or is his disease such that he can't go anywhere other cats are going to be?).

I believe in euthanasia, but only if there's no hope FOR SURE, not just an assumption that there's no hope. Adelaide vet may be highly qualified, but is too quick with the needle, and I suspect too worried about being sued.

Would love to hear what you decide.

[feloo]

Hi
I am not a breeder either, but I also think you should only euthansia an animal as a last result.

If your kitten has had loads of antibiotics, she should be given probiotics with her food. 70% of a human inmune systems is in your gut, which is why you need to restore good bacteria to make the gut (and so the immune system ) work better once you have had antibiotic.. The antibiotics also can drag the immune system down, even though you made need them at times. You can also give her a Vit B injection, which helps her to eat. Even local vets use holisit things and they are not holistic vets.

You may or may not have ever used homeopathics, but it can soemtimes work wonderfully with animals. I work with with a holistic vet here in the UK. I would suggest you get Cat Flu homoepathically, in 200c potency and give it to her twice a day. If hse still has runny tummy, give Arsenicum Alb 200c three times a day as well, or if it is her eyes, try Pulsatilla 200c three times a day until she is better.

Some vets have a limited repertorie for mangement of animals and the easist amd least chanllenging thing is to suggest putting them to sleep.

For you boy cat, why not try to strenghthen him as well.. Give him Calici 200c twice a day and you could give him for something for his heart..say Crategus 3x 3drops in his water or on his food. What is the heart problem? There are also things you can do for his teeth, although once a tooth is rotten, it ususlly does need to be removed.

Do you have any holistic vets in Australia?

[Rascal]

the older boy can be desexed and have his teeth cleaned at the same time and have done in adelaide - but - if he is a carrier of calci, if you have him in the house will he not continually shed the virus? also bear in mind that a recent vaccination will cause them to shed the virus. A course of doxycyline should help to possibly clear it up - speak to your adelaide vet about it.

Lots of smaller vets are unused to desexing - a younger vet can take 30 min plus for desexing a cat whereas an older vet can do that in 10 min.

The younger kitten - get an idexx respritory panel done on her - she has obviously been treated with the wrong ab's - take swabs from nose, eyes and throat - its about $170 - but will be worth the money to identify what is wrong. Chlamydia, Mycoplasma felis, calici, pasturella, etc all respond very well to a course of vibravet or doxy, but will need a long treatment time at a rate of 12.5mg per kg. daily and double that the first few days of treatment.

[lotus]

The info above re Doxycycline or Vibravet clearing up calici virus is incorrect. Antibiotics are effective for treating bacterial infections, not viral infections. Calici virus will not not respond to doxy/vibravet.

[Catsfriend]

Thank you all a lot for your good information and advice, I very much appreciate it!

[gazey]

I would euthanase in both cases. Neither is likely to live a happy and healthy life even with treatment. Living while suffering is not a better option imo.

gazey

[kittenmitten]

Totally agree with gazey

[Lee Lee]

I would euthanase in both cases. Neither is likely to live a happy and healthy life even with treatment. Living while suffering is not a better option imo.

gazey

Another that is in total agreement. I dont understand why when it has been mentioned that the male Birman is calicivirus positive Catsfriend would put her other cats at risk by talking of allowing this cat to live in the house with the others. I for one would not be a happy pet buyer to know that a pedigree kitten I bought was raised in a house with a cat that has a contagious disease.

[Heather Sharada]

If you can't find a solitary safe home for the old fellow - this is not impossible if you make finding the home more important than retrieving costs and his temperament sounds deserving - then I am inclined to agree with euthanasia. he definitely should not be kept in any form of contact with your other breeding cats.

The kitten is different....she is sickly and unlikely to grow into a healthy adult and you have given her a chance - by this age she should be starting to respond. I would gently put to sleep so she can end her battle. Sorry Ramona but there are worse things than PTS in some circumstances...

[lynh]

Hi Lee Lee,

CF wrote that the male will have to live in a cage.

Is the cage in the house??

I have a recollection of her mentioning ages ago that she visits him and has to wash and change her clothes each time to do so.

[Lee Lee]

Personally, I would like to have him desexed, so he can enjoy his retirement in our home and move around freely, without making unsuitable girls pregnant. (I still want to continue to breed my perfectly healthy Russian cats.)

Lyhn.....I think seeing that Catsfriends calicivirus positive birman is the father of her current litter of Birman x Russian kittens that there has been no total confinement of this cat to prevent disease. So I think the washing and changing of clothes etc and keeping him away from all other cats is what she had been advised to do by her vet...but seems she did not take their advice.

[Heather Sharada]

The reality of a calii virus carrier is that they are insidious...they may have no symptoms at all but the cattery starts to have mouth ulcers, blocked noses and weeping eyes in litters around the time of weaning or in some cases earlier.

At one stage in my early breeding experiences I had a cat that was a great mum but every litter at vaccination time I had the dread of tbe kittens getting the above. Mum had no symptoms but she came from a cattery which I later came to learn had "Cat Flu" problems. I never did lose kittens but it was really upsetting to have to treat whole litters before they went to new homes. My habit was to retire to new permanent homes ex breeders and once this girl went to her new home and all others were treated with Zithromax the problem disappeared....and I had started to get random problems in other litters.

Getting the cattery clean again was a lot of trouble but bought me great relief...BTW Zithromax given on the 59th day of gestation will clear a cattery if there is any problem and for some time I gave all cats bought in Zithromax as a prophylaxis.

[Catsfriend]

Thank you for all your comments and advice. What you have described, Heather, is very much the situation in my cattery, only that the weeping eyes and blocked noses don't appear in all litters, only in some - but then in all at the same time; for example, all my October/November kittens had it (that's why I still have six very "old" Birman kittens here), but on the other hand, the three litters which I am raising now (all between 6 and 10 weeks of age) appear absolutely healthy. I currently keep each mother with her kittens strictly confined,one in an indoor room, two in outdoor cages, and don't even allow contact between the mothers, as I used to with the previous lot of litters. Actually, also all my adult cats look perfectly healthy, even old Ben. When the vet checked him last he had an irregular and slow heartbeat, that's how the assumption of a heart disease came up, but it may be really nothing. He is a very affectionate cat and insists on his daily walk through the yard and sometimes he sneaks through a door or window and that's how accidents can happen, as my non-nursing queens spend most of their time moving around freely through the house; but if I don't let him out of the cage at least for half an hour per day, he won't stop crying, and he can be VERY vocal. I will have him desexed this week to prevent further unwanted litters, and see whether he will stop this calling - and spraying. By the way, yes, I also have two indoor cages, but they are not very big (just the size that pet shops or boarding catteries use to have).
In future, I will also give my Russians Zithromax as prophylaxis on their 59th day of gestation, just to be absolutely sure they and their kittens are well protected. This sounds like really good advice. Thanks again.

[lotus]

To clarify, Zithromax is an antibiotic, and as such will work on certain bacterial pathogens. This includes Chlamydia, for which it is commonly used off label, as it is not registered for veterinary use in cats.
It will not clear calici virus or any other viral infection. No antibiotic will clear a viral infection. They are, however, often prescribed for cats with a viral infection in order to treat any secondary bacterial infection.

It is a common mistake for breeders and some vets to automatically try to treat any respiratory or eye infection with antibiotics without swabbing to identify the pathogen. It is important to esablish whether it is viral or bacterial, and which pathogen it actually is, in order to effectively treat the cat. This is especially important where there is an ongoing problem or an infection that has not resolved.

If more vets and breeders did this at the outset, there would be fewer of those catteries who have ongoing respiratory illnesses that they can't really clear up, less chance of affected kittens having long term damage to tear ducts, eyes & sinuses as well as carrier status, fewer asymptomatic carrier cats with potential to shed what they are carrying, and less over medicating, especially young kittens, with the wrong medication (over and/or inappropriate medicating can potentially affect kidney and liver function with long term or frequent use).

The term "cat flu" is an over used umbrella term for respiratory infections in cats. These infections can be viral, bacterial or, rarely, fungal, and can vary from asymptomatic or mild through to severe.
I often wish people, especially vets and breeders, would use more accurate, specific & less scaremongering terminology than the generalisation "cat flu" that makes so many pet owners immediately think of a worst case scenario.

Cats are unfortunately rather more prone to respiratory infections than dogs, and, if it happens, it is a matter of being pragmatic and dealing with it, whether breeder or pet owner. This includes proper diagnostic testing and
appropriate treatment.

[Heather Sharada]

I totally agree with Liz....Zithromax is not considered useful for strains of URI that are viral...I suspect your vet is guessing Calici Virus... Because testing is expensive....

My vet was not keen to test...telling me that tests were not always reliable but
fortunately whatever ailed the cats back in the early 2000s did clear with Zithromax never to return so it was likely to be Chlamydia but the kittens did get mouth ulcers and rarely a weepy eye...so more in line with Calici Virus...

The point I was making is that your carrier status boy is a ticking time bomb to your othrr cats.